“Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.”- Steven Weinberg
What do you suppose is the relationship between religion and our practical morals?
I’ve been pretty much of the opinion that religion is mainly a great enabler or facilitator. That is, I’ve believed religion can work quite well to facilitate someone inclined to evil to do evil, and that it can work equally well to facilitate someone inclined to good to do good.
Yet, I haven’t often thought it changed anyone that much. In other words, I’ve thought it only infrequently caused a person inclined to good to do evil, or only infrequently caused a person inclined to evil to do good.
Recently, though, I’ve been wondering about that.
For instance, it seems some religious people in the States, who are otherwise fair minded and decent, oppose gay rights and are unwilling to treat gays fairly precisely for religious reasons. If that’s the case, then religion appears to be more than a mere facilitator, more than a mere enabler — it seems to actually change people’s practical morals from fair minded and decent behavior to behavior that is neither fair minded nor decent.
Now, if that happened only in a few cases, it wouldn’t bother me. After all, I’ve always allowed that religion could infrequently do such a thing. However, the number of people in the States who oppose gay rights for religious reasons is certainly more than a few cases. Rather, it seems there are millions who do.
Again, I’ve noticed that millions of religious people deny the theory of evolution for what seems to be purely religious reasons. While that denial is not a moral issue in and of itself, I must wonder at the power of religion to persuade so many people to deny a theory that has an overwhelming weight of reason in favor of it. If people can deny that much logic and evidence for religious reasons, then isn’t religion operating as more than a mere facilitator or enabler?
So, I have been wondering about the relationship between religion and morals recently. Does religion cause good people to do bad things? I used to think it usually didn’t, but now I’m not so sure anymore.
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26 responses so far ↓
Priyank // January 14, 2008 at 7:16 am
This may be a naive thought but I believe our conscience always directs us to do the right things. Religion is something that manipulates our conscience. If I am told that someone is more powerful than me, or that my destiny is predefined, then I won’t trust my conscience anymore, and that will result into doin bad deeds. I’m looking forward to reading the comments here
webs05 // January 14, 2008 at 8:43 am
Then the right thing must be subjective as plenty of serial killers and rapists will justify their acts. But even I’m not sure about my two examples here as many people that fall into those categories have other environmental variables at play. IE many criminals have emotional issues from bad childhoods etc.
However I think religion is more of an enabler. My Fiance is religious, much much more than I am, and she is a very decent, kind-hearted, individual. I am not sure on her belief in evolution, we haven’t discussed it but I have a feeling she feels it somehow threatens her beliefs. But on all other polarizing issues she goes against the common religious stance.
Some topics I think she is wrong about are due to religion’s hold upon her. She grew up in a religious environment and her parents, for some unknown reason go to a very strict church, which she was forced to attend. Its odd because her parents don’t buy into much of the BS that is pushed out.
I think people in general would have less to criticize if religion allowed more open discussion. Which is why I am glad my Fiance enjoys going to the local Unitarian church.
Nita // January 14, 2008 at 8:54 am
Paul when you say:
I agree wholeheartedly. In fact religion can be an excellent mask to hide someone’s evil.
wishtobeanon // January 14, 2008 at 9:10 am
I am not a Christian, but I admire some of the values taught in Christianity like service, philanthropy, love thy neighbor etc. In Hinduism, I like the message of tolerance. I don’t find anything wrong in Buddhism (I haven’t researched into any religion in detail though). I think all religions have their share of good and bad. People who cannot or will not think outside the book are the ones who follow religion blindly. I do think religion (and culture too) plays a great role in dividing people. Also, I don’t think that good people would be influenced to do bad things by religion, if it did, they were not really that ‘good’ (or rational) in the first place. Again, I think ‘goodness’ or ‘values’ differ from person to person.
rambodoc // January 14, 2008 at 9:41 am
Religion is a primitive form of philosophy. Obviously, therefore, there are some common sense and rational aspects of its philosophy, but to a large extent, it is an evil influence that perverts the gullible out of rational reach.
webs05 // January 14, 2008 at 10:45 am
As Rambodoc said, they are using gullible people. I am not sure a gullible person is necessarily a bad person.
Jacob // January 14, 2008 at 11:22 am
I think religion has another important function as well: hope for the afterlife. In some form or another, most religions deal with the death and continuity of human existence whether in a place called Heaven, a process of reincarnation, or any other belief that there is more than this one life on earth.
The threat of Darwinism, then, may not be entirely an attack on morality then (as is probably the case for gay marriage) because accepting the tenets of common descent makes belief in the afterlife more difficult.
Jackie // January 14, 2008 at 12:28 pm
People do bad things, not religion, itself an outdated social unifier. There are vehicles for doing good that do not involve organized religion. (Social, family, professional, civic, and hobby groups)
I see many shades of gray (actually, green :-). Nothing has topped the awe of the corporeal, real, living, dying, breathing world I live in: this is as close to transcendence and any sense of religion I’ve gotten to. It is more than sufficient.
Lift a rock, find a salamander. See thousands of nighthawks migrating in late summer. 17 species of ferns on the trail I walk daily, in this temperate rain forest biosphere. Early May, come the neotropical migrants - specifically, dendroicas spp. who have made incredible journeys here to start singing and breeding. Etc etc.
Here’s a video I uploaded, forgotten until recently:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3920764641750872993&q=%2BCanoe+%2BNew+%2BGo+site%3Avideo.google.com&pr=goog-slmmmmmm
I don’t know how anyone, short of pre-existing mental illness, can be so connected to these places, and commit any evil acts.
enreal // January 14, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Isn’t funny how religion is so far from purpose. I agree with you on religion being an enabler. Whether for the good or evil. Religion lost its purpose when it first killed in the “name of God”. We as individuals who believe in God need to search our selves for purpose and question whether our values are a reflection of an institution or a reflection of our demons.
aos // January 14, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I have to think of religion as a tool. Though personally I have great reservations about it, I know many fine religious people who would I am sure be good people without it and yet it does pervade their existence. So, enabler and facilitator.
Regarding the example about gays. Most of us come to our position by 1. knowing people who are gay (if we are not ourselves) or 2. from afar. If from afar, it is one of those others, like any others not like us, and in the lack of information, religion or any other body of knowledge can rush in to fill the gap. And then you might end up with “other, AND evil”, Of course, it might also lead you to “other AND human”.
The Christians aren’t of the fundamentalist stripe and have thought long and hard about their positions and are essentially humanists with a deity belief. They believe that human fallibility extends to interpreting the Bible. They look to their hearts as much as to the religious authority.
aos // January 14, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Sorry, I meant to write “the Christians I know” in that last paragraph.
ordinary girl // January 14, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I’m sure Christopher Hitchens would agree with you. I’m reading his book, so that just popped to mind.
I have a different take on it. Religion is a man-made philosophy, just like any other. The good and bad done in the name of religion simply people doing good and bad things. It’s not religion that makes us do bad things, although I admit bad ideas in the form of an ultimate command from a higher being isn’t necessarily easy for people to refuse, but people.
My argument isn’t that religion is good or bad, but that simply it is irrational and often wrong about the world. And I don’t have any problem with people practicing their religion privately or even speaking out on their beliefs as long as they don’t try to stop others from searching for the truth.
mysticwing // January 15, 2008 at 9:22 am
I no longer think there really is any link between religion and morality, or even between religion and genuine spirituality.
Religion is a institution that is about power and control, and is no more an ethical disciple than modern politics.
And perhaps this has always been the case. Religion always seems to follow along and co-opt the revolutionary work of genuine mystics. Christ would be appalled by so-called Christianity; Mohammad would turn over in his grave to see modern Islam.
The greatest evil seems to me to be organized religion pretending to represent greater good.
Bmoe // January 15, 2008 at 10:10 am
Organized religion is the root of all evil in the world. How many wars, how many live have been lost in the name of religion. Religion is very much an enabler to justify the mistreatment of others. Slavery was justified because there were slaves in the bible. Religion is just a fake front to cover the reality of what is really going on. Whats really bothered me about religions namely Christianity is there drive to recruit more into their flocks. Why can’t they just leave us freethinkers alone.
xiandhungrythirstysoul // January 15, 2008 at 10:43 pm
In my long quest for the truths about religion, I’ve met many people of different walks of life, of various religious orientation and affiliation and beliefs. Everybody is claiming that they know God, understand His will and His words and that they are the true religion or they belong in the true religion of God. Nobody claims and admitted that they are of the devil even the devils t6hemselves.
Saying and or claiming things is one thing… But, to prove the things said or claimed is another thing… I am so meticulous in many things and moreso when it comes to faith or spirituality and religion which lead me in finding the undesputed, irrefutable and ungainsaid truths of God in the Bible..
When I am doing a certain action, I am thinking of it several times, analyzing all the details and aspects of the course of action I am going to take to the extent of predicting the possible outcomes and anticipating the ill effects that may arise. I always wanted precision. I am a mediocre perfectionist yet, a persnickety and versatile or in layman’s term flexible one.
Let us take these things for instances:
Investing your money in a certain business venture which path is unsure and taking the risk of losing or gaining is nothing but tolerable and or taking a course or profession of your choice whose end is failure or success either is bearable. Why I said so? Want to know the reasons why?
Because the money, time and effort you spent and exerted can still be retrieved and or recovered in due time. But in the course of religion and spirituality, another way is taken and can’t be twisted like this: Once you lost your soul, then, it is lost forever. Once your soul was taken by satan, then, it will always be with satan forever.
I am really wondering why many peoples nowadays are losing their common sense. That common sense is now becoming extinct and rare like a diamond. Only few peoples have the common sense which made it uncommon nowadays.
When people buy a certain product, all the details are in the scrutiny and test and making sure that the right product is availed and enjoyed. But the foolish irony is that, when it comes to religion and spirituality, scrutiny, meticulousness, and common sense are unknown or absent. They never think and consider the consequences and responsibility that lie ahead and the successess and danger that await. These are the saddest things I’ve known, observed and proved recently. I read the Bible and have found the very answers to such questions and the reasons why majority of the globe’s populace are losing their common sense for they are blinded by satan, the god of this world. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
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4 “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (NIV)
As I went through the author’s idea on religion on this blog and the all commentors’ view points, all of you have one thing in common, the negativism towards religion. That caught my attention. I feel sad with what I read from all your posts. I can’t help but understand what you feel this time guys. I can’t blame you with such stance you have for I know, you all are just victims and being widely exposed to the false religions that mounted in our perilous times in this despensation of the last days. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
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“1This know also, that in the LAST DAYS PERILOUS TIMES shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” (KJV)
I was like you before. I was once a pessimist when it comes to religions though my parents brought us to be religious yet, untrue and full of hypocrisies in those religions I had before. Those religions I have affiliated before were just leading us due to their personal gains and profits (2 Peter 2:3)
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3 “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make MERCHANDISE OF YOU: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” (KJV)
Those religions are false and are not of God. But we can’t deny these truths that the Bible speaks of, the “true and pure and undefiled religion before God” (James 1:26-27)
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26 “If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.”
27 PURE and UNDEFILED RELIGION BEFORE GOD and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (KJV)
It may not be a very good example, but it came into my mind that men are like the fish in an aquarium. This acquarium represents the true church or religion wherein its water and the food being placed therein are the teachings and admonitions of the true church leaders sent by God which make all the fish live successfully.
Now, take the fish out of the aquarium and it will die and or put dirty water and improper food in that aquarium then, the same thing will happen; the fish will be in danger and die.
The latter case is the very scenario in the part of the fake churches and their leaders whose teachings and doctrines are not Biblical, and just the same with the fish, their congregations will not survive too. As the aquarium must be good and true, the same as through with the church or religion that must be good and true and pure and undefiled and biblical which is called as the CHURCH OF GOD mentioned in many verses in the Bible.
On the issue of “Morality” that you are pointing out, the Bible speaks of the highest level of morality. The morality of this world that is known to us are the defiled, superficial and hypocritical morality in desguise. But if we are going to base the morality in the Bible solely, then, the totality, essentiality and vitality of morality will prevail and manifest among us. I will explain further these things soon. I just wanna hear your comments to what I said guys.
On the Gay things, this issue is very essential and vital especially when we based it in the Bible. Never we can read in the Bible that it speaks against homosexuality but rather treat homosexuality as a part and parcel of its vital Truths and this must be dealt and treated seriously and sincerely. These truths are unknown to the hypocritical religious and world affairs at large today. The world of religions now are avoiding the issue and moreso condemning it for they are ignorant of the words of God in the Bible. I am not a pro-homosexuality but I have learned and understood it in and God’s divine will, help and Biblical framework and operations. Gays and lesbians must not be condemned but rather be treated as special people brought to those with understanding who received commandments and responsibility to take good care of and protect them that rae homosexuals. Many peoples especailly those hypocrically religious wannabes say that homosexuals are acursed and abominable to God and because of that, they erred in faith. God has His divine purpose why He let all these things to happen and exist here on Earth. We should not be blinded by satan. Homosexuals have much and greater chances for salvation if they will just follow the divine will of the divine Creator for them.
On the Darwinism things, I strongly believed that it is unBiblical and erroneous and abominable. Many Biblical benchmark passages and verses that could belie the theory of Darwin. In the first place, Charles Darwin was an atheist. Well, I also want to hear your point why you incline to believe his shit theory. This must be an interesting discussion. I love to deal with this things soon.
Catch you all soon guys…
Xian, d’ omninothing
Paul // January 16, 2008 at 12:44 am
@Priyank: That’s a very interesting thought about the role of conscience, and I’m actually sympathetic to it. My one reservation is I don’t think our natural conscience is quite as moral as we might want it to be, since it evolved to deal with small groups and we now live in much larger groups.
@Webs: Yay Unitarians!!! I have quite a fondness for them. I think they are one of the few religions that actually have their act together in this day and age.
@Nita: I completely agree. I live in a town that is home to the Focus on the Family organization, which under the guise of being a Christian ministry, attacks and demonizes people it disagrees with.
@Wishtobeanon: Good to see you again! I too admire many of the virtues taught by different religions. I don’t buy into the idea that religions are all negative. It seems to me they’re usually a mix of things.
@Doc: I think one of the most damning criticisms one can make about many religions is that they teach people to ignore reason and evidence in favor of possessing mere faith. Humans certainly do not require such encouragement to be irrational — they tend to be irrational unless taught not to be.
@Webs: I adamantly agree that a gullible person is not necessarily a bad person. In fact, gullibility has certain advantages at times. As Nietzsche said, one must first become a camel willing to take upon oneself any idea, no matter how burdensome. Only latter does one become a lion and tear apart those ideas that make little or no sense.
@Jacob: That’s an interesting take. I’ve known many people who “justify” their religious beliefs by pointing out that without some afterlife life would be meaningless to them.
@Enreal: Good to see you again! Like you, I am very down on established religions. This business of killing in the name of God is obscene.
By the way, I’ve put some new poems up this month, if you’re interested.
@AOS: The sort of Christian you personally know are certainly not the sort of Christian that appears to be causing so much intolerance and suffering these days. I too know some very beautiful people who are Christian.
@Ordinary Girl: I don’t have any problem with people practicing their religion privately either. Like you, it’s when they want to make their religion the law of the land that I feel forced to fight back.
@MysticWing: I sadly agree, Mystic. I wish there were a necessary link between religion and morality or religion and spirituality, but I can find no necessary links between those things. It seems to me that religion largely fails its adherents.
@Bmoe: I am forced to disagree with you that religion is the root of all evil in the world, although it certainly does seem to contribute it’s share to the evil in this world. But evil has many roots. Moreover, religion does, I believe, facilitate great good at times. We are in complete agreement, however, when it comes to wishing that religious folk would quit trying to impose their religion on the rest of us. That not only infringes on our rights, but it’s damn bad manners.
@Xian: Welcome to the blog! I’m afraid I cannot agree with you that God and Satan ontologically exist, and as a consequence many of your points seem irrelevant to me. However, I do thank you for your comment!
webs05 // January 16, 2008 at 9:45 am
Xian said:
Which means any discussion anyone has with you will get nowhere. You hold the Bible to be true and passages to be the word of God. How is it possible to debate that, other than me asking how can you prove such a thing?
Call me shortsighted, but I don’t see a way around a circular debate here.
Paul // January 16, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I agree Webs. For there to be a genuine discussion, there must be a genuine commitment to rationality.
xiandhungrythirstysoul // January 16, 2008 at 6:19 pm
@ WEBS05: I just wanna set this clear that I don’t wanna debate to anybody here. What I can afford why I visit this site is for the reason of mere interaction and pep talk to know your side and perspective on religion and spirituality. I just wanna have a sort of sharing knowledge and wisdom that my God entrusted to His people whose heart are readily available to obey and follow God’s divine will.
Now I know that you are not a believer of the Bible and you don’t believe that it is the ultimate source of the whole truths and nothing but the truths of God. May I ask you if you don’t mind answering this question: How far have you gone in reading the ever Best Selling Book, the Holy Bible? A mile and a hundred? What made you concluded that the Bible is fallacious? Mind you, everything and everyone, you and me, are in the Bible. Well, I could proudly say that of all the books I have read and digested, the Bible has the greatest and magnificent wisdom not only on the mundane things and stuffs but moreso the spiritual and heavenly things and stuffs. I am just continuously and forever grateful to God based on the disctates of the real Xian in me, my inner man, for His lovingkindness, mercies, all the unspeakable gifts and unfathomable wisdom bestowed upon me and His people at large every minute and every moment of our lives living in the God’s divine way and in the Christian way.
Well, I am still hoping that you are not a close nor narrow-minded as others do. I used to be an atheist before and quite firm with my stance about God’s existence. But suddenly, it all changed once and for all for I just desire to know the truths. He granted my wish and my desire and have found God’s answers and His faithfulness unto all generations. (Matthew 7:7-
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7 “ASK, and it shall be given you; SEEK, and ye shall find; KNOCK, and it shall be opened unto you:”
8 “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
That was the promise of God since the immemorial time and till now, the God whom I know and I serve, the One who cannot lie fulfills His promise till the end of the consumation of humanity (Titus 1:2)
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2 “In hope of eternal life, which GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began;” (KJV)
Hebrews 6:18
18 “That by two immutable things, in which it WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO LIE, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:” (KJV)
@ PAUL:
Paul said: [I’m afraid I cannot agree with you that God and Satan ontologically exist, and as a consequence many of your points seem irrelevant to me. However, I do thank you for your comment!
Thanks God for His unspeakable gifts and wisdom!]
Well, you must be afraid to what you said in doubting the existence of satan and God. I believe in my conscience that God and Satan really exist. If you are just true to yourself, then, you can honestly say that there is really God. God said and commanded us that we should obey our parents and honour our father and mother for righteousness sake for these commandments has His promise. (Ephesians 6:1-3)
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1 “Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.”
2 “Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;”
3 “That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.” (KJV)
Aren’t you doing these simple but no-ordinary commandments of God, are you? God’s commandments and admonitions were already written for us to follow long before our existence. And our conscience bear witness while we ar doing them. And I’m sure you are doing them because I believe that you know the great importance, value and benefits of respecting our parents. But, you don’t believe on Him? Is it not a battle in you? Aren’t you fighting your own self and conscience? With these simple premises could give you a thing to ponder on the existence of God. The words of God in the Bible don’t just speak of nonsense but of the spiritual, psychological and scientific things. His words speak of Him and prove His divine existence.
The words of God are so powerful that it can divide asunder the soul and the spirit meaning that it can penetrate the innermost part of our being. In fact it speaks of the conscience and by this we know that it speaks the truth. My dear friends I know that you have your conscience. (Romans 2:15)
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15 “Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their CONSCIENCE also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another…”
You can feel how truthful this pronouncement of the Scriptures. Our conscience bears witness of the existence of God. The Bible exactly tells us what is happening inside our being or in our conscience. It may accuse or excuse our own self and other people. Do you feel the same?
I hope that you will be honest enough in your reply; after all, it is not my business knowing your conscience, but yours. In our conscience also, the Bible tells us that there are”things of the law” written by God. Even if we have not heard the audible voice of our Creator, we know that our conscience can tell us of what is right and what is wrong. Verily, these are the things contained in God’s law: what is right — the dos, and what is wrong — the don’ts. (Romans 2:14)
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14 “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:”
Considering all these facts do you now agree with me that the Bible does not only speak of scientific but also psychological matters and spiritual things.
God knows our being, He knows our promptings. Solomon, with his God-given wisdom, once judge two quarreling women: each claiming that the baby boy is her son. He rendered judgment and said, “Divide the boy into two.” And the real mother gave up her son for it not to be divided. (I Kings 3:16-27)
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“Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him. And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house. And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house. And this woman’s child died in the night; because she overlaid it. And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom. And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear. And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spoke before the king. Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living. And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other. Then spoke the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it. Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.” (KJV)
Do you now believe that the Bible speaks of psychological matters? What am I trying to prove by narrating all these things? I want you to realize the Bible is a no-nonsense book. It comes from somebody who know even our conscience which cannot be known by the dearest and the most intimate of our relatives. It is known only to God.
(Jeremiah 17:9-10) “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
You might say, “So what if there is a God?”. I am trying to convince you to believe that we came into existence because of a loving God who is always waiting for us to acknowledge him. There are fools, who do not believe in God.
(Psalms 53:1) “The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.”
No amount of intelligence and knowledge that an atheist may posses can make him a good and better person, than to acknowledge the existence of God who created him and his neighbors. The best men in the whole history of humanity (men with human considerations, pity, justice, loving-kindness, moral aptitude and great leaders) all believe in God. I know that there was once a tyrant and demonic leader who caused the death and unspeakable sufferings of about 9 million people, and that person does not believe in God. Have you heard of Hitler? My advice is that for you to investigate.
My goal in sharing and introducing the Gospel to other people is to convince them to believe in God: the Almighty Creator of the heavens and earth, because I know in my conscience, had it not been for my acknowledgment of the existence of a great God, perhaps I would just be like those fine looking people who hide a monster in their conscience. Belief in God will make you a better person, more caring and more considerate to others — and that is the element of a more peaceful society of humans. Unbelief will not make you good, but 100% evil.
(Romans 3:10-1
“As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
May the Lord God Almighty, the God of Israel, even our God enlighten us all. I am nothing in the sight of God.
To God be all the glory!
Xian, d’ omninothing in the sight of God
aos // January 16, 2008 at 6:33 pm
You might want to consider moderating comments for a while. I say this partially because you might run up against some never before memory limit related to lengthy comments or if not that, extensive ruminations like the one above might unfairly prejudice us against Christian thought.
Brevity is next to cleanliness I would think.
Paul // January 16, 2008 at 6:47 pm
I’m seriously considering moderating comments, AOS. I don’t like being put into a position where that seems necessary, but on the other hand, I didn’t set up this blog just to provide a platform for someone to proselytize my friends.
webs05 // January 17, 2008 at 12:02 pm
No worries Paul, SEB prepared me for these people
lol!
But seriously Paul, I wouldn’t worry about it. Let this blog be an open forum. You are going to get trolls from time to time it’s inevitable. We know the message of the troll comes from the troll and not the blog author.
@Xian: I have read parts of the Bible and not the whole thing. Not due to lack of will, but lack of time. As a College student I have to choose where I spend my time. When I do have the time I do plan to read it.
But on another issue, the problem with people like Xian and many other Christians, isn’t Christianity or religion in general. It’s that people get to pick and choose from the Bible what messages are those of the “current” God. I can find hundreds of passages that are “messages from God” that would make people sick, but then I get accused of hand picking parts of the Bible no longer followed.
It’s all a game and a silly one at that. And I highly doubt Xian or over 60% of Christians have actually read the Bible. It’s pretty gruesome and messed up.
One question I always like to ask fundies is if they have ever ate a Shrimp?
callie // January 17, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Amazing……..Paul, you post this and when people respond according to the thoughts *you* yourself ask comments on- you then decided to comment moderate?
I am in agreeance with Xia…. and the funny thing about all of this is that Christians will always be seen as the freaks amongst any other religion. No skin off my back. I am secure in my heart. nothing to be debated about.
~c
webs05 // January 17, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Is it too much to ask to have a blog post on religion and not have bent-out-of-shape Christians come on and act like complete jerks. But instead actually attempt an open discussion.
Callie, as Paul already stated, no one here asked to be proselytized to. If you re-read the post and comments you won’t find anything like that.
So what did we miss?
Paul // January 17, 2008 at 2:41 pm
@Callie: I certainly don’t think Christians are freaks, Callie. Almost every single one of the Christians I know is a very decent person. It’s not Xian’s message that I object to, but the fact he’s using my blog without invitation to proselytize. In some of the comments from him that I moderated, he even had the nerve to accuse me of being from Satan. I don’t feel I’m obligated to post insults on my own blog.
@Webs: Thanks!
callie // January 18, 2008 at 6:46 am
I personally do not need to engage in convergance of anyone. First of all That is a very hard thing to do without engaging in the hearts of man. Second of all- I let my heart speak what my voice cannot.
In my response to XIA reply- I do not think he is outright declaring you are the spawn of Satan. If anything he was trying to elaborate more of how is able to answer the question that was posed- albeit in his way of doctrine which is what he believes in. There are those that you meet and engage in- that refer to doctrine and speak it because it is a part of them. Not only do some Christians do this but people of other faiths.
I am in agreeance that no one should be insulted either. You have a great forum with lots of topics, and of course you are entitled to moderate accordingly- therefore should you feel insulted then by all means open the can of whoop arse.
But keep in mind also, that when expressions and opinions are voiced, it can also be miscontrude for lack of emotions via this venue.
Ok. sorry to Hi-jak - however I felt it imperative to respond to basically say:
“It’s all gravy baby”
Git Er Dun.
~callie
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